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Should Tour Pros Be Held Responsible?
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TOPIC: Should Tour Pros Be Held Responsible?

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michaelko
RE: Should Tour Pros Be Held Responsible?
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Wednesday October 10, 2018 1:01 PM
QUOTED  It appears that your love for the game might have impacted your compassion. I read a lot that has been written about this. No one helped her for quite a long time but there are definitely many videos and pictures circulating. If you did nothing else holding her hand and talking to her would have been compassionate. Profiting, even social fame, from her misfortune is a terrible statement on golf and golf spectators.

this has nothing to do with my compassion. I know how I would have responded... but I'm a trained medical professional.

and who's profiting from this?

I'm just saying:
1. i personally don't know all of the facts... i'm still trying to figure out how she was hit... was it close range, 300 yds away?
2. too many cooks in the kitchen in these types of cases are definitely a factor...so koepka did nothing wrong, and shouldn't be expected to do anything more than he did
3. I understand human nature when it comes to 'getting involved', and we don't know all of the surrounding people's stories... but I agree, kinda sucks that no one helped... I still don't know how long.... you said quite a long time... that still doesn't tell me... 30 sec, 5 min?
QUOTED  As for responsibility I don't think we will have to wait long to have a legal decision on the matter. I do know that anyone can put any kind of disclaimer they want to on any ticket or event- it doesn't make it true and it doesn't alleviate responsibility.

the disclaimer on the back of a golf ticket is plenty good... and it has been tested in court of law. spectator assumes risk once you step on the course.

the claimant would have a case if they can prove negligence. So her argument is 1. the course spectator setup was inadequate, and 2. the marshalls did not yell fore. . both of those claims to me are not going to get her case in front of a jury, unless they can prove point 1. point 2.... they say they yelled fore, but even if they did, someone 300yds away not paying attention is not protected, and they would not be able to prove NOT yelling fore caused this. hell... even when you yell fore, half the time, you have no idea if it's at you. the other half, people look up.....
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 Message #89576 - This was a reply to message #89574
mlslaw
RE: Should Tour Pros Be Held Responsible?
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Wednesday October 10, 2018 5:57 PM
"Held responsible" is open to interpretation. I think Johnny GK is talking more in the sense of moral responsibility as opposed to legal. Of course the guy who hit the ball was the cause of the eventual injury. He set in motion the "projectile." But since this is a sporting event with a recognized potential for injury (and many people do get hit), the legal assumption of the risk doctrine applies in most US jurisdictions. This, tho, was in France and who the h knows what sort of rules apply in those parts.
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 Message #89583 - This was a reply to message #89570
JohnnyGK
RE: Should Tour Pros Be Held Responsible?

JohnnyGK

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Wednesday October 10, 2018 6:32 PM
QUOTED  I think Johnny GK is talking more in the sense of moral responsibility as opposed to legal.

Exactly

Yes spectators assume the risk getting hurt at a golf event and a tour player should not be held legally responsible IMO.

BUT ... this woman was obviously injured very seriously from an action he took. This woman needed help and compassion. If a tour player hits an errant shot that seriously hurts someone than they need to do more than just sign a glove and walk away. Its no longer business as usual.
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CPennbo
RE: Should Tour Pros Be Held Responsible?

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Wednesday October 10, 2018 6:33 PM
She has stated that she doesn't hold Koepka responsible but rather the event organizer and to a lesser degree the course. Koepka has stated he is very upset about it and that it will always bother him. I feel for them both. I know we all assume SOME risk watching any kind of sporting event but I am pretty sure none of us would expect serious injury at a golf course.

I'M not a lawyer or a judge. It will be interesting to see what transpires. I suspect that a judge COULD say that if K had kept it in the fairway where it was supposed to go there wouldn't be any injury. Courses and events allowing spectators to wander pretty much anywhere on a course during play might be assuming the liability for mis-hits. Especially with pro's. I mean the outfield isn't full of spectators and people in the seats can see the ball coming so it would be hard to argue that they couldn't have avoided a hit by paying attention...but golf? where you might be standing between two opposing fairways and being hit at from hundreds of yards off in both directions with a small projectile traveling at high speeds? Maybe the organizers do have some responsibility here. (I dont' think Koepka does although he feels like he does)
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New Year's Resolution- HAVE MORE FUN, DO MORE, SEE MORE, LAUGH MORE!
 Message #89585 - This was a reply to message #89583
mlslaw
RE: Should Tour Pros Be Held Responsible?
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Thursday October 11, 2018 8:27 AM
Agreed. There is a concept of forseeability for the organizers, much like a driving range inside a course. Players on the course are generally protected by netting bordering the range and a player feels some measure of protection from the range. In a tour event, there has to be some planning to identify the weak or vulnerable points (crossings, awkwardly placed grandstands, TV towers) and take sensible measures. Will be interesting to follow the French case arguments for liability.
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 Message #89593 - This was a reply to message #89585
michaelko
RE: Should Tour Pros Be Held Responsible?
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Thursday October 11, 2018 10:48 AM
QUOTED  I'M not a lawyer or a judge. It will be interesting to see what transpires. I suspect that a judge COULD say that if K had kept it in the fairway where it was supposed to go there wouldn't be any injury. Courses and events allowing spectators to wander pretty much anywhere on a course during play might be assuming the liability for mis-hits. Especially with pro's. I mean the outfield isn't full of spectators and people in the seats can see the ball coming so it would be hard to argue that they couldn't have avoided a hit by paying attention...but golf? where you might be standing between two opposing fairways and being hit at from hundreds of yards off in both directions with a small projectile traveling at high speeds? Maybe the organizers do have some responsibility here. (I dont' think Koepka does although he feels like he does)

a judge has already said athletes are not liable for spectator injuries that come to the normal course of play, no matter how horrible the shot was.

the nature of spectator golf is such that they let people walk where golf balls are flying. unless they limit spectator golf to greens and tees in grandstands, then risk of injury will never come close to zero. and when you enter the premises, you take on that risk. if you don't want to get hit, don't stand where golf balls may go.

as far as baseball, if you sit on the field level first or third base side, you are at high risk, and the risk of getting killed is not zero. anywhere in the stands, except probably for the upper levels of foul territory, foul balls are in play. but usually, you get plenty of warning for those. on the field level, you have balls coming at you in a straight line at over 100miles an hour. if you sit there, you need to paying attention. I will not sit there. I definitely won't sit there with my kids. , Cuz even if you are paying attention, if you've ever had a 100mph baseball come at you with sidespin... it's not easy to get out of the way. Though I think now, they mandated nets. But even still, I sat behind the ondeck circle once, and a foul ball came over the net, and the person wasn't paying attention, and she got plunked right in the head. hockey, same thing... they have those glass barriers, those pucks go into the stands multiple times a game, and they are hard and heavy... you need to pay attention. and there is no liability for the stadium, league, or player.

what I don't get, is the people that stand in shank zone 10-50 yds away, forming the corridor that they hit down, on every tee, and when they have to hit from off the fairway... and they stick their head out so they can see.... 1. that is just asking to get hit, and 2. i'm surprised this is the norm. I'm sure all of us would tell people standing there to move.


QUOTED  I know we all assume SOME risk watching any kind of sporting event but I am pretty sure none of us would expect serious injury at a golf course.

how much risk you assume depends on your actions. if you want to stand in shank zone all day, you assume high risk. If you want to sit in a grandstand behind the tee, you assume very low risk. but just because you don't expect it doesn't mean it won't happen, and the risk is real.

but until they change the dynamics of spectator golf, there is no liability (assuming no negligence)
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 Message #89597 - This was a reply to message #89585
michaelko
RE: Should Tour Pros Be Held Responsible?
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Thursday October 11, 2018 10:58 AM
QUOTED  BUT ... this woman was obviously injured very seriously from an action he took. This woman needed help and compassion. If a tour player hits an errant shot that seriously hurts someone than they need to do more than just sign a glove and walk away. Its no longer business as usual.

i don't know how one would reconcile this. pro golfers have a job, and a livelihood, and this is one of the possibilities they know going in. balls go off the fairway hundreds of times a day in a pro event. and, what's the line for 'serious injury'? and you said you 'give him a pass' because it's a team event. What if it's the back 9 of a major in the lead? do you give him a pass then? or does he have to withdraw as well? what if it's a monday qualifier trying to get a footing in the tour, and he needs to make a cut ? does this guy get a pass? or does he have to give up a real paycheck?

koepka is human.. he felt horrible.. it affected his play. i read one time els hit someone, and went on to shoot bogey golf he was so rattled. but to expect them to drop everything everytime a spectator gets hit is unreasonable.

i wouldn't be surprised if koepka reached out to this lady soon after this round. actually, i'd be surprised if he didn't.
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CPennbo
RE: Should Tour Pros Be Held Responsible?

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Thursday October 11, 2018 5:26 PM
QUOTED  i wouldn't be surprised if koepka reached out to this lady soon after this round. actually, i'd be surprised if he didn't.


I'm guessing you haven't read anything at all about the incident. I'm surprised actually.


It's clear that we have differing opinions so we'll just have to call it all square.
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New Year's Resolution- HAVE MORE FUN, DO MORE, SEE MORE, LAUGH MORE!
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