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TOPIC: GK Cup 16 Team Match Play

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Alex326
RE: GK Cup 16 Team Match Play
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Tuesday October 20, 2020 5:14 PM
Scenario 1: I would have to agree with you on the spirit and the letter of the law/rule. No alignment aids on the course. I don't have a problem with the partner standing between the player and green for an alignment aid sight and then move once the player is ready to hit. I also think you were well within your right to call them on the potential rules violation.

Scenario 2: Letter of the law/rule: Must identify the ball before claiming unplayable and dropping at the sight for the one stroke penalty. Otherwise it's a lost ball and stroke and distance, meaning must be played from spot originally hit from. BUT... I'm good with the spirit and if there's a true consensus that the ball is somewhere in the deep grass. aka, deep bunker fringe at Ridge Creek. Yeah, drop, there with a 1 stroke penalty.

I'm more of a stickler on the search time. this is more for a pace of play issue. I'll help look for 30-60 seconds then feel free to keep looking while I and others play out our balls. Once we are done if you aren't on the green at that point. Hole over, move on!

[[Edited by Alex326 on Tuesday October 20, 2020 6:44 PM]]
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 Message #96685 - This was a reply to message #96683
gary00
RE: GK Cup 16 Team Match Play
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Tuesday October 20, 2020 7:02 PM
question is are the rules discussed before hand to determine how strictly they will be followed. In match play like this what ever is agreed on keeps a level paying field for that match. Kind of like having a local rule for the course. In the absence of such discussion reverting to the rules as they are written would be appropriate.
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 Message #96686 - This was a reply to message #96685
Nickesquire
RE: GK Cup 16 Team Match Play
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Wednesday October 21, 2020 5:44 AM
Not looking any of this up, just expressing opinions on what I think the spirit and letter of the law are.


My understanding is that teammates can assist each other in a team competition as much as a caddie can assist a player. Sharing course knowledge, sharing observations about the wind or yardage, hole or match strategy, pointing where they think the line is, reading putts etc. All in the preparation stage of the shot. But that needs to cease once the player addresses the ball and is ready to play, then he has to be on his own.

My gut reaction is that alignment sticks during a competitive round = no. But if you can use a finger or club to point, is an alignment stick pointing in the air any different? I think probably okay in the air, but using them in a competitive round on the ground for alignment purposes = absolutely not. Using the same premise as hovering the putter over the ground showing your teammate how far outside the hole you think the break is = allowed... but traditionally, you were not allowed to touch the actual putting surface with your club to show them the line.


A lost ball is traditionally a stroke and distance penalty.

It's one of the cruelest breaks to hit a ball that should be in play but for whatever reason it isn't findable. Haven't we all lost a ball down a fairway that we are about 99% sure should be in the fairway? Or barely in the rough. But it's just gone?

My understanding is that you cannot claim the distance unless you have reason to believe it went into a hazard and is then lost. Then, you drop and it's a 1 stroke penalty.

However, if there are no hazards close to where you think the ball went, the new rules allow you to drop where you think the ball went to save time. But I have to disagree with Alex on any non hazard lost ball just being a +1. It's my understanding that it is +2 if you drop where the ball went and avoid the traditional distance part of the stroke/distance penalty. The new rule enforces it this way. You are getting credit for the distance advanced you would normally have to replay to get back there (one stroke) AND getting penalized for the lost ball (another stroke).

You always have the option of hitting again from where you hit and use the traditional stroke and distance penalty... which is my mind is basically a 2 shot penalty, because instead of being there in 1, I am there in 3 off the tee.

Otherwise, why would anyone EVER take a stroke and distance penalty if they get to keep the distance and just add 1 stroke like it's a yellow or red hazard? A lost ball is like hitting one OB... it is a WORSE, more punitive penalty that hitting a ball in a hazard that you cannot find or play.



From the first post on this topic about local rules for the GK Cup: **Recent POP alterations to strict tournament OB/lost balls are acceptable in the GK Cup. Not required to go back to the previous spot and rehit if no provisional was played. Just +2 to score to account for the normal stroke/distance penalty.



IMO, I know of no circumstance under the rules where a player is not entitled up to his time limit to find his ball... Unless HE declares it lost. Not his opponent, HIM. I personally would have a problem with anyone who wants to impose any arbitrary amount less than is allowed by the rules on an opponent. 2m, 40S, 3M, 20S... does anyone really want to put a stop watch on things in a for fun, yet competitive match? But way past the time limit? What Alex said makes sense, if the other 3 have had time to putt out, it has likely exceeded any reasonable time limit to still be looking for his ball.

[[Edited by Nickesquire on Wednesday October 21, 2020 6:31 AM]]
REPLY
The goal has always been long and straight! But since I can no longer hit them long, hopefully straighter could be achieved more than occasionally?
 Message #96691 - This was a reply to message #96686
AndrewZ28
RE: GK Cup 16 Team Match Play
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Wednesday October 21, 2020 10:12 AM
^^^What Nick said in regards to playing your next shot after a lost ball. No need to go back and hit from the original spot, be you have to add TWO strokes.
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 Message #96697 - This was a reply to message #96691
roarksown1
RE: GK Cup 16 Team Match Play
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Wednesday October 21, 2020 11:08 AM
Well, I think it's time that I add my two cents here considering I am the player in question. First off, regarding scenario 1, it was never an issue as the alignment rod was never going to stay there when I got set up. It was literally the same thing as Marvin pointing out the best line with his index finger and an extended arm. There was no argument whatsoever there about removing it. Non-issue.

On the 18th hole, I'll be the first to admit that I was very hot under the collar since I had been playing a terrible round overall and had an opportunity here to win us the overall. My second shot from the left side of the fairway was thin and low and hooked a bit, but nothing crazy. If you're familiar with the hole, there is in fact a concrete path that bisects the fairway in that area and leads down to a very large drainage hole. I searched in this area a lot but again, could not find the ball.

Now, for context's sake, we were not rushed. We found the sweet spot in the lineup for the day and did not wait on a single hole the entire day. It was fantastic. We were not ever particularly pushed from the group behind all day, either. I definitely pushed the five-minute time allotment but once the group behind us caught up to me, I took my medicine with the drop and proceeded to finish the hole. There was no OB situation and we all know that no one is going back to play the original shot on a public course on a Sunday afternoon. It's a one-stroke penalty that was taken and Perry's team won the hole fair and square and we split the points.

For the record, on the 11th hole when Chuck's tee shot was 3/4 buried into the mud with no shot to advance it, we had absolutely no problem letting him pick it up and drop from a better lie. There was a nearby tire track so we just claimed that as an impediment and moved on. Never once thought twice about making a big deal over it. But had I found my ball, regardless if it was 5 minutes and 37 seconds (since there's no official clock), I would have played it and counted it accordingly. Under the circumstances of how the day had played out in terms of POP, that would not have been an issue, nor should it even be raised. But as fate would have it, I whiffed my good opportunity to add another half point and that's the end of the story.
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 Message #96698 - This was a reply to message #96697
PokerGuy0826
RE: GK Cup 16 Team Match Play
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Thursday October 22, 2020 6:31 AM
This is from the USGA site:

If you hit your ball out of bounds or lose it (you have three minutes to search for your ball before it becomes lost), your only option is to go back to the spot of your previous stroke to play under stroke and distance. The only exceptions to this are if your ball is lost in a penalty area (when you can use any of the penalty area relief options) or lost in an abnormal ground condition or in an obstruction.

A final exception is when a new Local Rule which provides an alternative to stroke and distance relief is in effect. This Local Rule is recommended for casual play and not for competitions involving highly-skilled players. If it is in effect, for two penalty strokes, you can estimate the spot where your ball is lost or went out of bounds and then find the nearest fairway edge that is not nearer the hole than the estimated spot. You can drop a ball in the fairway within two club-lengths of that fairway edge point, or anywhere between there and the estimated spot where your ball is lost or went out of bounds.

Hopefully this clears things up for everyone going forward. Good luck guys, hit 'em straight & have fun!!
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 Message #96701 - This was a reply to message #96698
Deepsea14
RE: GK Cup 16 Team Match Play
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Thursday October 22, 2020 7:07 AM
QUOTED  For the record, on the 11th hole when Chuck's tee shot was 3/4 buried into the mud with no shot to advance it, we had absolutely no problem letting him pick it up and drop from a better lie.

Should be embedded ball rule through the green by rule.

Alignment stick use. Penalty by rule. Partner can stand in front of player on hill and say hit it here then step away before partner plays = ok by rule

QUOTED  ^^^What Nick said in regards to playing your next shot after a lost ball. No need to go back and hit from the original spot, be you have to add TWO strokes.

concur with AndrewZ28 and squire said by rule of GK and USGA

options to consider
The word provisional could be used and a second ball played.

Situation could be discussed then play second ball for a TBD ruling after match, for complicated rulings. In this case the player has to choose what ball he intends to use if allowed. We use this in NCGA events.
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 Message #96703 - This was a reply to message #96698
FirstFlightFX-101
RE: GK Cup 16 Team Match Play
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Thursday October 22, 2020 4:58 PM
I appreciate these discussions around rulings in match situations...I've learned a lot as a noob to competitive golf. Humbly admitting to be more ignorant than most, my take away here is; to be better prepared when I find myself on 'either side', of the next situation. Thanks to all for contributing...
have I mentioned lately that GK rocks?
Cheers,
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 Message #96708 - This was a reply to message #96703
Nickesquire
RE: GK Cup 16 Team Match Play
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Friday October 23, 2020 9:35 AM
QUOTED  A final exception is when a new Local Rule which provides an alternative to stroke and distance relief is in effect. This Local Rule is recommended for casual play and not for competitions involving highly-skilled players. If it is in effect, for two penalty strokes, you can estimate the spot where your ball is lost or went out of bounds and then find the nearest fairway edge that is not nearer the hole than the estimated spot. You can drop a ball in the fairway within two club-lengths of that fairway edge point, or anywhere between there and the estimated spot where your ball is lost or went out of bounds.


I just learned something, because I did not realize you got to drop in the fairway on the local rule option... I thought it HAD to be dropped close to where the ball was estimated to be lost, which is frequently a much worse lie and probably angle to the green that the edge of the fairway option as stated here.
REPLY
The goal has always been long and straight! But since I can no longer hit them long, hopefully straighter could be achieved more than occasionally?
 Message #96716 - This was a reply to message #96708
kassper7
RE: GK Cup 16 Team Match Play
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Friday October 23, 2020 10:00 AM
First off - I apologize to Robert for calling him out. There was no way to bring this up without doing so - so my choices were to hold my tongue - or possibly make this uncomfortable post. I think either choice could equally be argued. I've only gotten through the first 4 chapters of Nick's email (I'm saving the rest for a long plane ride), but I'm not sure that was necessary.

I think it sounds like it was fine for me to call out the illegal use of a the alignment stick - no matter how innocent it's use might be. Perhaps if I had been nicer about it - it could have felt like a warning that if you do the same thing in front of someone more exacting than me - they might call a penalty - which they would be within the rules of golf to do.

The lost ball issue I thought about and would describe it this way. Think of the first 3 minutes as holing a putt. No argument possible. Any time after that is like conceding a putt. Every minute is like a foot of putt. Of course I'm going to allow you that fourth minute as a courtesy - if you picked up your ball without me saying "it's good" from a foot away, I wouldn't make an issue of it. As we approach 5 minutes now I'm going to consider not accepting you finding your ball without a penalty just as I would not accept you picking up a 2 foot putt without asking if it's good first. As time goes on beyond that, you really cannot expect or demand that I accept your situation without penalty.

The situation, as I saw it, on the 18th hole was much easier to assess - when I decided I would not accept Robert finding his ball without penalty, I thought it had been closer to 7 or 8 minutes - solely based on the time it took the rest of us to play the hole. That didn't happen - so situation avoided. I also wanted to mention that it was a 2 shot penalty - that day - on the course, but it didn't seem like a "good time".


hopefully we never get to this level of petty in our matches

https://twitter.com/clubproguy/status/1316166981029105665
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 Message #96717 - This was a reply to message #96708

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